On another post Anonymous wrote:
"Hey! I don't want to post on this topic. Can we have a new topic of
Class sizes? There are huge discrepancies at Whittier Elementary. 68
students in two classes of kindergarten. Yet in third grade there are
two classrooms with a total of 22 in the grade level and in fifth
grade there are two classrooms with 26 total in the grade level. These
teachers refuse to combine and change grade levels and the principal is
not doing anything about it. So you have two wonderful kindergarten
teacher working them selves crazy and they are not receiving any help or
support."
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32 comments:
Given the structure of RISE and scores and scripts, any of the old ways of combining couldn't work today.
I don't believe the writer here wants to combine two different grades together. He/she is suggesting putting the two third grade classes together. (one class of 22 and doing the same with the fifth grade classes.(one class of 26) Having two classes of Kindergarten of 34 each is not acceptable to a rational person.
Since the area of certification would be elementary education, any teacher can teach any general education class within the building. A problem does arise in the contract where a teacher has the expectation to teach the same schedule each year. Not that the PFT would ever support a grievance, the possibility does exist. The greater problem will be the next three years.
If a child is to learn reading, It must be accomplished early on. Same with writing, problem solving, critical thinking... What happens when this large group moves on to 1st grade? Again, you will have two teachers for 68 students. That is assuming parents don't pull their children out of that school. The problem will continue over the next several years. This principal does not fit the model of a bully principal. This one wants to avoid conflict? Why has This been allowed? Are they trying to early exit one of the kindergarten teachers?
God bless us, God bless us all.
By contract, both kindergartens should have aids when numbers get that large. There are several aids that have been displaced so thank you for posting this. In addition, you should check your contract book on class size. There are exceptions.
The problem is, you cannot really be sure that rules will be read in a straightforward way.
For example, CAS classes were to be limited to 20 CAS students. That is part of what made them CAS classes.
PPS took the position that 30 students could be placed in the class as long as no more than 20 had submitted an application and been designated as a "CAS student." Does anyone believe that this was the intent of the rule- to allow 10 extra "non-CAS" students when 10 extra "CAS" students would be prohibited?
Rules and contracts are only as strong as the enforcement behind them.
Sad very sad :(
What is a CAS student?
CAS was the "Center for Advanced Studies." To qualify for CAS classes, students generally needed to score 130 on an IQ test or 125 plus submit a portfolio of work. A different score applied for students from underrepresented groups or with special circumstances.
So it would make no sense to say that you could not add to a 20 student class additional students with similar qualifications, but you could add additional students without these qualifications.
It sounds like the kindergarten teachers need teaching assistants. Are there any teaching assistants on the furlough list? Kindergarten teachers need assistants with that many students. Let's get these wonderful teachers the help they need.
Questioner, your 9:13 comment has me puzzled. In my teaching days, a CAS class only had CAS students in it. Regular ed students were not to be put in those classes. It is allowable to have mixed groups of students in general ed. classes. (music, art, phys. ed., and shops) These classes could easily have the limit of special ed students and regular ed students. CAS students are also in the special ed category. Imagine a wood shop with 15 special ed and 20 regular ed students. Alfred Hitchcock could not dream up a better nightmare!
Here's another example, discussed elsewhere on the blog.
There is a law requiring that a superintendent contract can only be extended within a certain period (something like a year or 18 months) before the end of an existing contract. Seems pretty clear.
However, well before the permitted time frame Roosevelt wanted an extension. He set up a "resignation" (with all sorts of protections) that lasted a few minutes and signed a new contract. Voila, an extended term without waiting for the date when extensions could be granted.
Whatever you can get away with.
7:10, that is how it used to be, but PPS opened CAS classes to non CAS students who met certain requirements (something like a B in their previous class in that subject and a teacher recommendation). But these students were not considered "CAS students" for purposes of the 20 student limit.
I'll push back on the non-CAS student designation. The non-CAS student may have an IQ of 130 or above but never had the opportunity to be tested.
Allowing non-CAS students entry into the CAS classes gives those students the opportunity they wouldn't have otherwise. The application and selection process is not simple. It is designed to screen for students who have the ability to perform well in the CAS class.
It is very possible that standards for CAS should be adjusted but whatever the standards for admission are, it is clear that there were to be only 20 students in the classroom.
2:47 Why doesn't the district take teacher recommendations for testing in students? We moved from out of state and waited a year thinking our son would get a referral from his teacher. We found out later we had to request testing. He ended up with a score of 129 & a supporting portfolio so he finally was accepted into the gifted program.
His teacher 4th grade said afterwards he was surprised he wasn't in the program because he was one of the brightest kids in his class....ok, so why not tell us before?
We moved out of state and don't have to deal with this mess anymore.
Sometimes teachers assume everyone knows the procedures. Which is an especially bad assumption to make these days because procedures are always changing.
Questioner,
The scary thing is my spouse was a C level executive for PPS at the time and we had no clue! (I posted the 11:00pm comment.)
There was zero communication.
what positions are "c level executives" in pps?
Annon 9-16, 11:00. We were told NOT to tell parents to have their kids tested. Parents do have to initiate the testing, but PPS has to pay for it. If parents insist on testing, money for other things disappears. Save money, don't test.
Also it would be easier to expand Cas class sizes if fewer are tested, bc for purposes of the 20 student limit Pps only counts the students who have been tested.
Your numbers regarding class sizes at Whittier are not correct. While the classes are extremely large, the larger kindergarten has 32 students; the other has 28. Your numbers for the 3rd and 5th grades are also wrong. Most importantly, teachers can not refuse to teach anything they are certified to teach. ALL Whittier teachers are concerned about the kindergarten students and teachers, and are willing to do whatever it takes to help these kids learn. Whittier has a committed and caring staff who consistently put the needs of the students first. To place blame on people who work hard and care deeply is extremely unfair.
C level executive is "Chief"
Worked directly for Roosevelt & Lane. No love lost.
I think that teachers can and should teach all of the students that they can. Out May be hard but suck it up. If a teacher can not teach kindergarten with naps, and play time maybe someone else should take over these classrooms. Isn't this why there is a rasin program in schools to get rid of teachers. Maybe these kindergarten teachers had an easy year last year and now a hard year. It happens. Maybe the upper grades deserve a break after all they do pull the rest of the school along with preparing the students for PSSA testing. Those upper grades are the hardest to teach, with hormones, attitudes and trying to fill in the gaps that the lower teachers couldn't fill. Maybe it's the upper grades we should applaud and let the other teachers worry about naps and finger counting. If they can not do it find someone that can.
We'll maybe if our district eliminated ITL 2 positions we could have additional teachers to reduce class sizes. I teach in the city and had several 6th and 7th grade classes over 35.
Really, 7:54?!
Hahahaha, most people who teach upper elementary in a PPS (or most anywhere else) wouldn't trade with a kindergarten teacher for anything! Nap time and play time are extremely minimal. The noise level is insane with all those high-pitched little voices, whining and crying abound. Accidents of the bathroom variety are common.
Go ahead, have a party for 30 5 year olds. Run it all by yourself, don't lose anyone, and be sure to make it educational.
Then do it for 5+ hours a day, every week day. See how long you think K is an easy job.
And no, I am not a K teacher!
Safety issues would probably be paramount for kindergartners. Remember the problems with young students walking off in recent years?
WowAnon 7:54 really...you must want a reaction to your philosophy...well you'll get one. Yes it is true that the older kids do have PSSA and hormones and attitudes etc...,but having larger kdg classes is also ridiculous. The younger grades may seem easier as the students haven't developed attitudes yet, but to teach all the kids their sounds and begin to read with everyone having varying levels and believe it or not, there are some young kdg children who don't know the right way to behave. All grade levels should have small class sizes, but to think for a minute that kdg kids rest and nap...REALLY I challenge you to a week in a kdg class to see if you have changed beliefs.
Studies have shown that the widest ability gap is...in Kindergarten! Also, remember all the students who "should be tested"-- well no one does it in Kindergarten-- the thought is that we should "give them a chance"
Imagine children who can not or do not speak their given names. Inclusion often lessens aa students get older--everyone is included in Kindergarten.
I'm sure there is a line of aspiring teachers who would welcome the challenge to teach kindergarten. Perhaps it is time for these teachers to retire or move on to another profession.
I want to look up how much they make!
Nap time and snack time have not been a part of kindergarten for years. In fact, some classes do not even have time to play. All students are expected to read and be able to write complete sentences by the time they leave kindergarten, in addition to the numerous math goals and benchmarks. PPS now allows children to start kindergarten at 4 years old, and with most children having no preschool experience, and full inclusion, it is no small feat. Studies continually show that class sizes need to be smaller in grades K-2. It has nothing to do with teachers that are unable to "suck it up" or do their job. Kindergarten teachers are accountable for more then just academics. I appreciate the comment of an everyday person running an activity for 30+ four and five year olds for five hours and making it educational and engaging. Let's add into the mix autistic students, children that do not speak English, children with behavior issues and households that you are grateful you do not have to go home to each night. See how easy it is. My guess is that you would not last one day!
Didn't Whittier just lose a kid within the past week? I remember seeing police officers and staff members running around the school. And on my way home I saw cop cars down the street. I was talking to my neighbor and they said that it was a kindergarten student. It's sad that these teachers are working so hard and yet have to worry about about escaping children out of back doors. It's sad to say that things have not been the same since Mrs. Wallace the old principal left. She ran the school like nothing else and without that type of strong leadership things fall apart. The principal they have now seems scattered and unfocused. To agree with an earlier post.. it's just sad.
They are finally combining an upper grade to create a 3rd kindergarten. The teachers are mad and chatty about it. They seem to be pointing fingers at one another blaming one another and are giving a lot of push back.
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