Monday, June 27, 2011

Leaders of the "reform movement" at odds w/ parents, studies about class size

From the NYT

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/27/education/27oneducation.html?_r=1 :

"Leaders of the so-called reform movement, including Mr. Gates, Mr. Duncan, Mr. Bloomberg and Mr. Klein, say that in hard times, increasing class size is one of the best ways to save money, as long as there is a strong teacher."

However, these leaders and their children have generally attended schools with small class size, and studies cited in the article support the benefits of smaller classes.

46 comments:

Questioner said...

When the district claims that schools are at 70% of capacity- do assumptions about class size figure in the calculations?

In other words, does a school's capacity change depending on whether 17 student classes are planned v. 30 student classes? Could at school 100% enrolled with classes of 17 be considered less than 60% enrolled if class sizes are changed to 30?

Are you joking? said...

Where this district's administration is concerned, trust none of what you hear and less of what you see. Never in the history of Pittsburgh politics has a group of people come together to form or embrace a mandate that has absolutely nothing in common with the
needs of stakeholders.
What is particularly galling in all of this mess is the single fact that individuals like Jean Fink and Teresa Colaizzi know a simple truth: no one cares. They can do as they please and they will always win re-election.
No one cares.
No one will question.
What a horrible time to have students in PPS. I have no doubt that our teachers are wonderful but if I were in charge, Dr.Lane and everyone in central administration would be pink-slipped immediately for failing to remember just who it is they serve.
I'd work to push a referendum to have the school board staffed by appointment of the mayor--with the need for a solid background in place for even beginning to think of becoming a member.
Reform movement? It should begin with parents.
Only the forced removal of Lane and all administrators and consultants at PPS will do. Only the re-structuring of our school board will do.
I'd call that reform.

Questioner said...

Remember that the mayor appointed Dara Ware Allen, who has not had any discernible impact on the board. Or even raised any challenging questions. Looking elsewhere, mayoral appointment in NYC led to more Broad/Gates. It does not seem to be the answer.

Anonymous said...

Capacity us figured by square feet per student-- when the study was done for "right-sizing" the assumption was that every "room" was a classroom- storage areas, book rooms, computer labs-- some schoolsbecame terribly overcrowded after right-sizing. The bean-counters came up with numbers thant were to say the least inhumane.

Questioner said...

The solution in some cases- was to make storage rooms into classrooms... but it would be interesting and useful to see a few "before and after" capacity figures so that when we are told schools are at 70% capacity, we can take it w/ a grain of salt.

Disappointed said...

I see this coming in PPS. Class sizes of 30. Overcrowded classrooms where discipline becomes the main focus over education. I'm a teacher and I have a son who will enter kindergarten in 2012. I live in the city and had always planned on sending my kid to a PPS school. We're a middle class family that Roosevelt used to say he was interested in "bringing back into PPS" --- but we were already on board! My wife and I were always PPS advocates and ready to put our kid in the system. Until recently.

I used to be confident that as a teacher I could steer my child into the right schools, to navigate a big bureaucratic system. But now there are only a few schools I'd consider sending my kid to today (compared to about a dozen I would have considered 10 years ago). I used to think the foreign language magnets were the way to go, but they're are barely what they used to be, with some of them having so little language learning in the schedule that it's a joke to call them a language magnet. Plus sending a kid onto Obama right now isn't very reassuring to me.

If class sizes jump/double the year that my son starts kindergarten, PPS will have lost us. We'll bite the bullet and send our kid to private school. I never would have considered this five years ago, but I never imagined how bad things could get.

Questioner said...

Discipline issues are mentioned in the NYT article linked above- with almost twice as many kids it may just be unrealistic to expect the same results. As for language magnets- basically at the beginning of 9th grade students from K-8 language magnets start w/ year 2 of the high school books- only a year ahead of students with no language trainng at all.

Anonymous said...

I'd work to push a referendum to have the school board staffed by appointment of the mayor--with the need for a solid background in place for even beginning to think of becoming a member.

The last time that idea was pushed (I believe it was during the Thompson years, but I really don't remember) it was pointed out that appointed boards cannot levy taxes. Which meant that the mayor/city would then be in charge of the school budget. (I'm not 100% sure on that last, I'll try to track down the info.)

That should also give one pause. It seems like it would be the equivalent of having two school boards.

Anonymous said...

-->> "But now there are only a few schools I'd consider sending my kid to today (compared to about a dozen I would have considered 10 years ago)."

*Yes. I used to tell people to go and visit their neighborhood school before they even considered other options. Most people had heard horrible things and were very pleased to see what was offered right in their neighborhood.

I can think of three magnet elementary schools I would recommend seriously considering and maybe one neighborhood school.

-->>"it's a joke to call them a language magnet. Plus sending a kid onto Obama right now isn't very reassuring to me. "

Yes. It's teetering between losing all semblance of a rigorous, disciplined learning environment and total chaos. The remaining teachers of old and a few, very few, of the new teachers are the only things holding it together at all.

-->> "I never would have considered this five years ago, but I never imagined how bad things could get."

Yes. I'd guess we have one or two more years in the system. If things haven't changed for the better then, we're out.

We've even considered moving out of the city, even though just typing it makes me tear up. The schools here were one of the reasons we chose to move here and live in the city. Now, that's pretty much gone.

Obama Teacher said...

As an Obama teacher I once again have to question exactly where you get your information. "Total chaos"??? Where? I cannot remember a fight over the past year at the high school level. I cannot remember a loud argument. As stated once before, what is the end game in making such a comment?
As for disgruntled teachers, where? Who? If you are talking about left over teachers from the Schenley IB program---Spartan Classics--I can empathize as we no longer have the school within a school concept where IBDP is concerned (that's another conversation completely). Still, having talked with teachers of all levels at great lengths I have to question your commentary.

This commentary is patently false:
" Yes. It's teetering between losing all semblance of a rigorous, disciplined learning environment and total chaos. The remaining teachers of old and a few, very few, of the new teachers are the only things holding it together at all."

Name names. Give specifics. And if you refuse to do so, I have to wonder about your agenda.

As one of the "older teachers" you are speaking of, I take issue with such an incredible misrepresentation on a public message board.

Obama Teacher said...

You know, I'm so disturbed by this commentary that I have to add this note: I am extremely proud of our students. Are you aware of the many programs that are kids take part in and excel at a high level which other district schools either don't have, don't take part in or apparently get involved in because they "have to"???
Do I really need to provide a laundry list of things Obama kids are a part of that rivals anything the kids over at CAPA or Allderdice do?
Please know that early in my career, I worked in out-of-control schools which were essentially "gangland." I've worked with apathetic colleagues and do-nothing administrators.
None of that is the case at Obama.
Why this "character assassination"?
What is your point.
Are all of our kids IBDP or even IBMYP material? Probably not. But do all of our students have goals beyond high school--in most cases, college? Most assuredly.
The challenge of teaching is to help kids mature in a direction that will lead them to their dreams. Any good teacher understands that each student matures at a different rate and while some won't realize their potential and seize opportunities until it is almost too late, most at Obama are aware of the opportunities IB brings.
Calling the place chaotic or hanging by a thread defies logic and simply put...is a lie.

Anonymous said...

In some ways it is so rigorous an disciplined that it loses sight of the need for kids to not just work but to have fun as well. Including fun that does not contribute to any type of award, future goal, test score or accomplishment. And I am saying that as a very goal oriented person. What happened to the end of year cookout?

Obama Teacher said...

The end of the year cookout and the field trip 10th graders were to take to a local university were cancelled due to horseplay that the principal had warned about. While you and I might agree that holding the entire class responsible for the actions of a handful is not the way to go, the actions were not representative of "no fun" or "chaos". Please try to tell it like it is. I know. Our entire staff knows. Our kids know. Apparently you don't, but it's not stopping you from posting such information.
And I think we are all cognizant of IBDP being a rigorous curriculum, as is IBMYP, but to say that it's all work and no play is, again, erroneous.
There was a dance, a couple of faculty hoop games, and other events that served to blow off some steam in the last few weeks of school.
I believe that as the school progresses now to being a complete 6-12 school, you will see many more events aimed at students in the upper grade levels. I know the principal is working to that end. I know upper grade level teachers have put forth some ideas.
It's funny, but I get the idea that if there were more than a handful of events, your comments would talk about how academics are suffering thanks to a party atmosphere.
The point is, this school can't seem to please you.
The question is....why?

Questioner said...

Re: elementary magnets- some of the best schools like Liberty Elementary were partial neighborhood, partial magnet schools. This arrangement promoted strong neighborhood support and stability while offering students from other areas a chance to attend. Liberty was quietly changed to an all-magnet school (apparently no neighborhood preference) and as a result at least one family recently decided against looking for a home in Shadyside. At the same time other magnets such as U Prep, when administration was still assuming it would be a huge success, were being set up as magnets w/ neighborhood preference.

Anonymous said...

I am not 5:53; talked to several kids and no one knew why the cookout was canceled. They said next to no one went to the dance- the location/theme/whatever were not appealing. Not everyone plays hoops. Glad to hear effort is being made for more events.

Anonymous said...

Is there a school in existence that is free of horseplay?

Questioner said...

Did anyone think to ask whether a better solution might be to ban the handful that caused a problem?

Obama Teacher said...

Questioner, it would seem to me that there is a reason that our school is a safe school, knock on wood, that our kids understand their roles and responsibilities and that most pointedly, there is a positive atmosphere where our kids get along. I don't pretend to know the inner workings of administration, and I don't think any fellow teacher would say differently. All I know is that it works.

Anonymous said...

""Total chaos"??? Where? I cannot remember a fight over the past year at the high school level. I cannot remember a loud argument. As stated once before, what is the end game in making such a comment?"

Were you there on the last day? Papers thrown around the halls and the crossing guard desperate for security to come out as the students streamed across Penn Ave, between cars and against the light? Fights up and down the street?

Yes, the HS is somewhat calmer than the MS, but that's not saying a whole lot.

I didn't even know about the 10th grade thing. (There are several different people posting here).

What exactly constitutes "horseplay" between a "handful"? Either it was a serious enough infraction to warrant cancelling or it was not a serious infraction and obviously if kids didn't know why it was cancelled, that wasn't much of a deterrent. One would assume that such a consequence would actually be explained so kids could learn from the experience.

Anonymous said...

Obama Teacher -- how many kids do you think will attempt the full diploma next year? Do you feel they will be more prepared or less prepared than the students taking it over the last 5-10 years?

How about the years after that(this year's 9th and 10th graders)?

You seem to be saying that the HS is better than the MS, from reports I've heard from subs and other people in and out of the building that is the case. However, I've also know of several families who pulled their kids out after last year's 6th grade and many more whose kids are not continuing to 9th grade in the fall, despite having planned to do so.

What do you attribute that to?

Questioner said...

The thing to look out for, now before it is too late, is whether the HS is better than the MS just because HS students are more mature than MS students- or whether there is a trend where better behaved students were already in the IB pipeline when the change to 6-12 was made but have not continued to enter the program.

As for diplomas, Excellence for All made many promises about AP and IB- such as, the number of students passing exams and earning diplomas, etc. would quickly double. It would be helpful if the district would put out regular reports on EFA results.

Obama Teacher said...

9:19, yes I was there. I was out in the halls monitoring the kids coming and going as I have for all these years. I didn't see you there. "Papers all over the halls"??? This is indicative of total chaos to you? If so, might I suggest a nice private school for you, circa 1950. For the record, there was little paper in my hallways, as locker clean out was the day before.
I can't speak for Penn Avenue although I heard that the one fight that was there concerned a kid who was not one of ours.
Again, you seem to have some 'thing' about Obama that drives you to provide hearsay as fact. Truly, this is going nowhere as you have a bone to pick.
9:23, I would not glean from my postings that one school is "better than" another in our building. On the numerous occasions in which I have seen middle school kids in class, I have noticed that they are on task, attentive, respectful and learning in every classroom. I am sure 9:19 would look at middle schoolers in the hallways as being out of control, but not from my vantage point.
As for kids leaving, this has always been a 'problem' at the end of 8th grade, dating back to the Frick days. Some kids choose to go to Allderdice. Some to CAPA. I don't see this as reflective of dissatisfaction with the HS program and IB but rather, that the family sees different opportunities for myriad reasons at one of the other two schools. Certainly, retaining kids must be a focus in years to come.
As for the diploma, it is hard for me to get a read on the number of kids who will opt for it next year or in subsequent years. Yes, IBDP carries rigor, but it carries much more in the way of personal organization and I know the coordinator is looking to make that message clear--prioritize studies, understand the requirements, plan for them accordingly and be ready well in advance of target dates.

Anonymous said...

Some of the IB diploma exam grading is ridiculous, with motivated students who are organized and got straight A's in a subject getting low grades on the diploma exam. At least parents don't have to pay for it any more.

Another Obama Teacher said...

I have enjoyed this thread, although it has strayed from the sobering note associated with the title. That should give any teacher great pause.
I agree with everything my colleague has said about Obama. It's a wonderful school. I'm not so sure about the end of the year festivities, the whys and what for's and perhaps the reasons mentioned were what some of the kids surmised.
Still, I'm wondering what the bottom line is, too. I've been at numerous other schools and never sensed any entitlement there where field trips or activities were concerned. Perhaps the parent feels students are owed something?

Anonymous said...

That may or may not be an example of "ridiculous" grading. It may mean that the teacher didn't understand the requirements of the exam and wasn't able to prepare the student well enough.

It's common enough in schools that tout their high AP enrollment that there are kids who get high Bs and As and end up with only a 1 or 2 on the exam.

How many of the IBDP teachers will have been trained for next year? This year's seniors had a lot of teachers teaching classes for the first time (though they may have taught a different IBDP class before). Obviously the first time through is going to be more of a learning experience for the teacher.

Anonymous said...

"If class sizes jump/double the year that my son starts kindergarten, PPS will have lost us. We'll bite the bullet and send our kid to private school. I never would have considered this five years ago, but I never imagined how bad things could get" ~anon 5:20

Hurry up and start looking now, many private schools are filled.

Anonymous said...

It's not so much being owed something (although IB students have long noticed that they have more work than students at other comparable schools), but that at magnets students are more dependent on school activities. School friends are not a few blocks away as they are at neighborhood schools. And, small magnets have fewer activities to provide social opportunities.

Anonymous said...

**perhaps the reasons mentioned were what some of the kids surmised.**

I don't have a child affected by this, but if kids have to "surmise" why a field trip was cancelled, then that's pretty poor management/discipline.

The kids should know exactly what the consequences and at least an outline of why if those consequences are to be of any use. Otherwise, what's the lesson learned? Don't expect a promised trip, because it may be cancelled for no reason that you know of is a much different message than "a handful of kids indulging in horseplay ruined it for everyone."

As a parent, I honestly have no problem with the latter (though I know many would), but a big problem with the former.

Anonymous said...

At my Catholic HS way back, after someone put on a Richard Pryor record the senior lounge was closed for the rest of the year. It was the kind of reaction that made me say I would choose public schools for my kids.

Anonymous said...

Of course, it may be that it was a quite a few more than a handful and a bit more than horseplay.

Although, again, if it was truly fewer than about 10 kids, why not just leave those kids out? That seems the clearest, easiest, most understandable consequence and a lesson both to them and the rest of the class.

Anonymous said...

Better communication would help because I just assumed events were missing this year to save money.

Anonymous said...

I don't know why this thread turned into the Obama thread, but since it did, where is Obama going to be next year?

Questioner said...

The last word was Reizenstein for one more year, and the district put out a bid for a new roof. But given financial problems the response may be to move to Peabody sooner rather than spend money on a roof.

Anonymous said...

The bigger question is how many schools are 100% safe, as in going to exsist next year? Off the top of my head I can think of Squirrel Hill, Brashear, Capa..most if not all magnets & westinghouse. What schools could be on the chopping block?

I have no idea but maybe Greenfield as an example? It would be PCish since it is near Squirrel Hill. I think a lot of parents may be shocked by late summer and have little or no information since the technology department will be unable to imput data to reassign students in time.

Mark Rauterkus said...

Next year, 2011-12, the Pgh Obama stays at Reizenstein. Then in the fall of 2012, the school should move to Peabody, all grades, 6-12.

Anonymous said...

They will buy a new roof regardless.

Anonymous said...

My class sizes were the largest they have ever been last year. All my classes were 33-35 students. Displine from administration was weak to non-exsistent.
Lets increase class sizes to save money because strong teachers can do it. Kiss my Barney Stone. Everybody knows the smaller classes are better. Lets put even more on teachers. Do not piss down my back and tell me it's raining.
The PPS is getting rid of Vice Principals who disipline students. They bring in Pela's as Principals on Special Assignment and Directors to watch and nit pick teachers (Rise) while the schools displine goes to hell. That is what is going on in the PPS.
The teachers from perfect Obama need to stick their fingers down their throats and through up the Kool Aide.
Look at what these private school coporate scumbags (Eli Broad & Others) have done in Detriot & Chicago alone and you will see what is instore for the PPS.

John Tarka was such a complete idiot or so stupid. Not to know that Broad controlled Detriot School District, when he kept threating us with doomsday senerios from other School Districts before the last contract. Or did he? Why did he sell us out?

It's only going to get worse before it gets better.

This was never a reform, it is a hostile take over of public education by corporate America.


Sad & Depressed Teacher

Another Obama Teacher said...

I don't think our school is "perfect", but I know that our teachers don't "drink the Kool Aid" you speak of, friend. Perhaps it was the late hour which led you to write in such a manner, but it seems that you are unaware that both IBDP and IBMYP teachers have the responsibility of teaching the IB curriculum. In IBDP, it means that IBDP curriculum alone is followed. In everything else, it means PPS curriculum also has us adding IBMYP curriculum, as well.
I'm disappointed that you are sad and depressed and perhaps you wish your misery to have some company. I'm disappointed that you would equate teachers who understand their responsibilities, make comment, and then move on to their work as being somehow 'complicit' with people like Gates and Broad.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
As for year end activities like a field trip and/or cook out, I'm not sure such things were actually scheduled, so I can't comment about cancellations with certainty.
I don't think you denigrate an entire school because of hearsay associated with either, to the truth.

Anonymous said...

To Disappointed who says she sees class sizes of 30 in the future.... South Brook Middle this year had class sizes of 36 (in the past it was more like 24 average), and 3 to 4 kids sharing lockers. This is because SBM was the only non-magnet middle school to make AYP in 2010 so they had to accept any and every student who wanted to go there. Not likely to make AYP this year, that's for sure. It was a great time for principals in other middle schools to dump their most difficult students on to South Brook...and the district did nothing but let it happen. For the first two months all kids would have a seat in classes ONLY IF 5 or 6 kids were absent. I don't know how they finally solved that problem, but my son said they figured out how to put more desks into each classroom around November. It is not appropriate to have such large class sizes at any grade level in this day and age, but most certainly not at Middle School.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 10:16, the IB exam grading is done by international examiners and are graded anonymously along with students from IB programs all over the world. Ridiculous or not, the students are held to an international standard, hence the name International Baccalaureate.

Anonymous said...

This year at Obama there was also no soft-covered yearbook. The yearbook helps parents tell who is who and gives kids a good activity to work on. Maybe cost IS the reason behind cutbacks.

A parent said...

Obama has a wonderful online newspaper, the best anywhere that I have seen. That makes the yearbook issue even more curious. I know it was a weird situation, with Schenley closing, its seniors leaving and Obama not really being a total high school yet, but I agree that some foresight should have gone into the decision. After all, they have had yearbooks at the middle school level in the past. It's a nice keepsake for parents and students.

Anonymous said...

Parents-- if a teacher is new to your school-- ask them what they taught the year before-- please note through the shinanigans, 200 teachers were displaced--much of the plot was to divide teachers, place people at different levels and tell parents- this was "getting the best" for their students- just like a teacher getting the kids to spout the RISE script was best for your child's learning===dont drink the kool-aid , parents!

Questioner said...

Was most of this shuffling due to requirements for federal funding where there needs to be a staff turnover of more than 50% in schools not doing well?

Anonymous said...

Administrators should also be asked about previous responsibilities, certifications, experience, expertise, school level (if any) before they are put in positions for which they have no qualifications.

Moving 50% of the staff may meet state or federal requirements; but, how does that improve the quality of education? It will take a lot more than moving the demoralized, the incompetent, the frustrated, the disenfranchised, the overworked, the underworked, the dispirited, etc. from building to building.

Anonymous said...

**Was most of this shuffling due to requirements for federal funding where there needs to be a staff turnover of more than 50% in schools not doing well? **

No. It was because of closing Faison and Lincoln 6th to 8th grades, reconfiguring Westinghouse, coming up with a new model for Faison K-5 (that move of trying a new model may have had something to do with scores) redoing Brashear (and King? Did they have to reapply as well?) for the Teacher's Academy and the influx of kids to Milliones due to closing Peabody and the unappealing W'house single gender option.

If Brashear kept 30% of its teachers, that means 70% are moving to new schools, W'house required applications for its staffing, so all of the teachers not rehired? Out on the market, teachers from the closed schools, teachers who couldn't stand their PELA, teachers who wanted to move, teachers who were at Schenley only and moved to new positions, it's crazy out there!