On another post Anonymous wrote:
New topic please-- discipline in the PELA era
The first comment I
personally ever heard that seemed like a weird script was afoot was the
mantra of," when you remove a disruptive child from the classroom, you
lose your POWER. My first thought was -- if a student s disrupting
learning, that student was in the power position. As I went aling to get
along, i saw PELA principals hit ( in hall siruations cause you cant
put them out of class) and students struggling to learn while students
performed. As this became the law of the land, schools ot more and more
chaotic, at least according to parents. It seemed that with the new
script, all students mst remain in their classrooms while principals
roamed with laptops. In the past, teachers actually worried that a
parent or olde school principal would get upset if a student WASNT
removed in a timely manner.
Fast forward to today-- listened to
the director of Clayton Academy-- sorry didnt get his name-- say that
one of the first moves with a disrutive student is to " remove the
student fom hid audience" then, work on WHY he was acting out--in
school, or out of school issues. Hmm sounds pretty old school order to
me.
Maybe the reason that we have o bring in a company like SuccessSchools is that Broad/ Gates forbids really "running" a school.
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22 comments:
Isn't Howard Bullard still at Clayton? He kept pretty good discipline at Schenley. There were incidents but he knew how to keep things under control. Liked and respected.
The PELA principal have neither the training, the principles, nor the experience that are absolutely necessary to run a school. The just do know what to do in a leadership position. So they fall back on placing blame elsewhere, anywhere and everywhere. Old school principals took great pride in being leaders, problem-solvers, voices of experience who could and would set things "right" in the schools where they were the appointed building the moved on or were moved on by central office. The never hired consultants to do the job for them. How embarassing!
These old school principals held themselves accountable for running positive, productive schools. PELAS could learn so much from these retired, successful principals who, as mentors, could inform and model the process for those PELAS who show some potential. The others need move on, seriously move on to positions where they can find success.
(And a move to central office is contra-indicated. It would only compound the continued problems for our students.)
"Remove from audience"
Such a simple concept and yet, one that's not seen much. It's absolutely true that you can't (and shouldn't) solve a student's personal issues in front of the whole class.
You can use several techniques to attempt to stop that disruption in the classroom (and then deal with it later, if possible). However, if those don't work, your "power" lies in being able to send that child out of the room so that the classroom order is maintained for all the other students.
Having that student reappear within 5-8 minutes with a smirk on his/her face and already disrupting again is not "power" and it clearly shows all the other students that their welfare is of no concern to the administration of the school.
While teachers can work with their students to solve problems related to their classroom and subject (such as rearranging seating to help a child retain better attention and control, making some sort of contract with student around behavior in that one room, offering extra help on the classwork, etc.), it really can't be the job of teachers to solve out of school issues.
I know some teachers don't want to hear this -- that they aren't therapists -- but it's not in anyone's best interest to have teachers doing jobs they aren't trained to do.
That's not to say that a good teacher can't support a student, can't take outside experiences into consideration and most importantly, guide students to people who really can deal with those issues and support their using those resources. They can continue to check in with students to see how things are going and encourage them to seek more help.
But to expect that a classroom teacher can both teach AND resolve the problems of say, 2-15 troubled students (depending on how many students they see in a day)is crazy and it's not at all what they are trained for.
All good points, 12:55.
"It's not in anyone's interest to have teachers (principals and c/o administrators)doing jobs they aren't trained to do).
When you need dozens and dozens of consultants to come in and attempt to provide the skills that are missing, but should have been the most important part of meeting the job qualifications, you create the situation of out-of-control disciplinary and academic achievement deficits that have taken over the majority of PPS.
And, yes, 12:51, for (old school) principals and administrators, this would be VERY EMBARRASSING!
Maybe, just maybe, the idea of having students in charge of the learning in groups has extended to having students in charge of discipline in the school.
Is that what we expect of those in the formative stages of their lives?
Usually children go to school to learn---not to teach each other or control the building.
The children can LEARN anything that the adults can TEACH--- including behavior and academics.
Example is most often the best way to do both.
" when you remove a disruptive child from the classroom, you lose your POWER"
when did this become the ethos of admin? when disruptve students are not removed they hold all the power. don't think for one single minute that the district will ever become a district of first choice for any population when disruption is accepted without consequences or with minimal consequences that result in a smirk. go back to old surveys and find that those who left to go to private or parochial school often cited a lack of enforcement of the rules as the reason for their departure.
I'm new to this site after a colleague told me about it. I have to say that the generalizations are not very helpful. Not all PELA's are the same, just as not all teachers and certainly not all "old school principals" are either. Some of the retired principals were bullies and suspended kids for just telling them no! Don't get me wrong. I don't think it's any better to leave disruptive kids in the classrooms, but let's not make generalizations about who was better at discipline. Some of the retired principals were wrong too!
True-- but most retired principals believed that an orderly school was THEIR job-- news to rookies-- the orginal "walk- throughs" were other principals looking at how schools were run- looking at halls of displayed work--all unique--and then they would discuss among themsleves and with the principals and v.p. what they saw and ask questions. Then the host6ing principal would return the visit-- if asst. superintendents saw an innovative answer to a general problem, they would speak up and say-- ooo, lets share this. Often they would come at lunchtime, or dismissal-- times that can be difficult to administrate. It really was learning-- not punitive. But of course, principals utilized in-school suspension, and personally called parents about situations--
7:07 - Yes you could get that impression, but when you read carefully, it is likely that more often than not the references to pelas and old school do not include all and somewhere puts them in some sort of qualifying category since it is rare, if ever, that -all- is specified.
But the general state of PPS schools -not all- but the majority are in worse condition, behaviorally and academically, than ever before and in most in this state. Just check out the stats.
What can be done? 7:07
7:43 - I think what needs to be done is parents need to get more involved at the individual school level. Changing central office is too hard but you can help to make your school the best it can be by getting involved (and getting other parents involved). That is the solution! One school at a time until more are better and none are worse! Of course, that is just my opinion! 7:07
7:07 pm The old school principals who knew how to lead, manage and control the educational environment were not bullies; they were successful administrators who commanded respect and recieved it from teachers, students, parents and the community. What we have now is students being allowed to show their disrespect for the principal by ignoring them, walking way, or even cussing out the principal! When this is the "new norm," chaos abounds.
Teaching and learning is compromised and there always seems to be a PELA ready to document students acting inappropriately in the classroom. Poor administrators blame teachers for classroom management when in reality the environment of the school has declined due to the ineffectiveness of the principal. I'd take my old school principal any day. It's difficult even for an excellent teacher to keep up their game when the students are the ones who are in control. There's nothing like consistency and an understanding of expectations by all to operate a successful school.
I also agree with 12:51 pm in bringing back some retired vets to work with the inexperienced, know it all PELA's who drank the kool-aid.
My kid had a bully principal in elementary school. She is retired now. Unfortunately I did not know how much of a bully she was until he she had moved on.
Not all PELAs bad, not all old school good. We can leave it there and also say that parents only step up when their kids are affected in most cases.
9:19 - Some of those retired prinicpals you are talking about used to publish spreadsheets of how many referrals were written by individual teachers. They bullied kids and they bullied teachers! That is not good discipline. That is managing through intimidation.
The whole point from 7:07 is that just because someone is an old school principal, which seems to mean retired now, doesn't mean they were successful. Like all professionals, there were great former principals and others that PPS should be happy are gone!
Let's not pretend that everyone from the past has all the answers. Some of them created the problems that we need to fix now!
Whoa! Sorry that 8:37 had all of the bullies in the retired, old school group. Some of us were a lot more fortunate. Schools with what are often referred to as being in the "worst" neighborhoods, with the (quotes) "worst" kids had terrific principals and great teachers with kids achieving at very high levels. In one what is now one of our lowest achieving school, kids were achieving 2-3 years beyond grade level. Now, 70% of the kids are below basic and the environment has been described as chaotic.
All that to say, "it can be done" but it not being done now. Why?
Good principals are leaders. They know how to make a school, any school, a good and productive learning environment.
How many PELAS have done that in our lowest achieving schools?
Hey 8:37 Not a single poster here pretended that everyone from the past had all the answers. So don't go off the deep end. It is safe to say that many, if not most of those now retired, did a substantially better job than those who are principals today in PPS.
This district is sliding away and it should not be and does not need to be if we could find a few good school leaders!
How many PELA's have dragged down schools that were previously performing well?
Not to stir the pot in a new direction or anything, and as only a parent, my exposure to principals is limited, but principals are following orders from above, right? Wouldn't that make it possible for a once highly effective principal to see a slide in the performance of his students through no fault of his own? Apply the same thinking to PELAs and if a new set of directions were followed they have the potential to get better grades too.
Actually, 6:01, if they are just following orders from above, they are not the leaders. Schools need leaders; principals are supposed to be those leader by definition.
Principals were once trained in Universities as well as PA programs and then chosen when it seemed they were ready based on performance and problem-solving in assistant roles and demonstrated judgements in tough situations where autonomous decisions had to be made wisely and relatively quickly.
PELAS are trained in PPS by PPS and as you suggest must follow orders from above. Formerly highly effective principals were selected because they autonomously were able to make good leadership decision, often outside the box.
The 6:01 description seems based on making excuses and placing blame. Not a good direction.
Explanations are not the same as excuses.
Let's just look at the facts. PSSA achievement scores have fallen in almost every school in 2012 and I'll bet it will happen again. Teachers talk across the system and what we see now are so many old school principals who were independent thinkers retiring and those positions being replaced by PELA's who never learned how to lead yet alone create an effective plan to improve student achievement. We see and are victims to the PELA's inability to manage the school's environment by supporting teachers through implementing clear and consistent discipline procedures and consequences. Few can devise a school wide schedule that makes sense, has an understanding to manage a school's finances and see the need to develop community partnerships for the benefit of students.
However, PELA's were trained well in the blame game and carry their techie devises to record each incidence of what they observe as sub par teacher performance. I'm not saying that all teachers are proficient but all one has to do is look at the Board Minutes to see what the #1 task of PELA's seems to be. PELA's stay in their lock box designed by CO and dare not take a risk for fear of reprisal. Some here have spoken of old school principal bullies or intimidation when in fact that is exactly what the PELA doctrine has taught the current principals. I for one regret the day when my old school principal retired and this comment comes from a teacher whose 2012 rating was proficient with spinkles of distinguished from a PELA principal. It's a game we all need to learn how to play. I never had to be a game player with my past principals.
You have expressed 99.9 percent of the thoughts, we as teachers, believe at our school..... and now you have ITL 2s drinking the same koolaid!!! Teachers without leadership experience impacting evaluation practices for other teachers!!! Please.... it's all becoming laughable!!!
6:01 You're right about how the PELA's are not true leaders. They are step in line employees lacking independent thinking and the know how in managing school operations. Many of these so called leaders were at best seen as average by their colleagues who used the pen frequently to write up students. It's laughable to hear of someone suggesting that PELA's are fixing the problems of their predecessors when student discipline continues to deteriorate, achievement has fallen and the racial achievement gap persists. The PELA's are like their counterparts in CO who lack practical hands on experience for the positions they hold.
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