Friday, March 14, 2014

High school start times

From the NYT:

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/13/to-keep-teenagers-alert-schools-let-them-sleep-in/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

28 comments:

Questioner said...

From the NYT article:

"Researchers have found that during adolescence, as hormones surge and the brain develops, teenagers who regularly sleep eight to nine hours a night learn better and are less likely to be tardy, get in fights or sustain athletic injuries. Sleeping well can also help moderate their tendency toward impulsive or risky decision-making....

In 2012, the high school in Jackson, Wyo., moved the first bell to 8:55 a.m. from 7:35 a.m. During that academic year, car crashes by drivers 16 to 18 years old dropped to seven from 23 the year before. Academic results improved, though not across the board."

If PPS administration really cared about the "whole child" these findings would be compelling.

Anonymous said...

Sadly, much of PPS students and parents' feelings about this issue revolve around work schedules. It doesnt say the the regular sleep must be in the a.m. Somehow adults have decided that these students are free to work, stay up late and we should feel sorry for them. It is true that students need 8/9 hours of sleep. And they need to devote more time to academics. This is the essence of why college comes as a surprise. They have no idea of how competitive a comprehensive suburban high school is. But if it helps with car accidents etc. that certainly cant hurt any community. But if it is giving them more nights to work, or they will get to work later due to later end times-- are we helping academics?

Questioner said...

It actually does say that the extra sleep needs to be in the morning, due to this age group being biologically programmed to be awake until 11:30 and then needing at least 8 hours of sleep.

Anonymous said...

Yup, this research shows that adolescent "clocks" are set to make them stay up later (and thus get up later). This is one of a very few areas of education where there is clear evidence of benefits. It's been tried and compared in many different districts and shown to have a lot of positive effects.

Anonymous said...

Too many parents need kids in school early so they can go to work themselves. I experienced parents dropping their kids off as early as 7:15-7:30 when I worked at Reizenstein. It was almost as though we were wrap around child care for some. The discussion for later start times has been around before. I just don't see it happening here.
End times have to be pushed back. Sports, after school activities are affected. Students out later in the evening is a problem for many. It could have a negative impact on this part of school life.

Anonymous said...

okay-- if that is what the study says, it probably is true. School didnt always start this early. not sure when it happened.

Anonymous said...

Why not a pilot? Going all in does not seem to work well. Transportation is a concern. How about having 2 shifts?

Anonymous said...

Early start times for little kids are fine -- they're up, their clocks are set that way.

Starting earlier or later doesn't make the school day equal a work-length day, anyway. Parents are going to need extra care regardless, unless the day is extended (and teachers are paid more or staffers are hired to provide outside of instructional time oversight of the kids).

The problem with most of the arguments against is that more problems don't show up where it's been tried. Yes, there may be a few new problems, but you'll have solved far more of the old problems.

Anyone who has lived with a teenager knows that trying to get them to learn at 7:30 in the morning is a lost cause. Perhaps that's when sports should be?

Anonymous said...

PAT (the bus authority) does not want a later start time for PPS students.

A later start time would mean that the students would be on PAT buses during the morning rush hour. This would cause a strain on PAT resources at that time.

I was told that PAT gives the PPS a discount on student bus passes because of the early start.

So sorry, students, once again your needs will not come first.

Anonymous said...

Other difficulties with later start times for high school are accommodating sports, after school jobs and activities, attending college courses, etc. I know that I, and really everyone else I know, attended HS with early times and somehow made it through.

Questioner said...

How many buses did you take and how far did you travel to your HS? Did you need to be there at 7:30?

Mark Rauterkus said...

I would think that the later start time would not be much of a problem for sports.

Back in the day, when the city league had 2:15 pm matches and games and such, the matter might have been different. More teams are going into the WPIAL and that calls for evening competitions.

Later school day might help PPS with the hiring of more coaches who are NOT on PPS staff.

For swimming a later start time means that the 6am swim practices can be much longer. We could swim and lift from 6 to 8:15 and have the kids get to class by 8:50 am.

Anonymous said...

How the heck did we do it when we were kids??? School hours were the same as they are now. Quit making excuses for the kids and become parents. Have them go to bed at a reasonable hour. We've already taken over feeding them breakfast...what will be next?

Questioner said...

Start times have gotten earlier and with the demise of neighborhood schools travel times have gotten longer. And fewer homemaker moms preparing breakfast, etc.

Anonymous said...

It is awful that to take advantage of the more challenging programs you have to exert tremendous effort to get to school. There were many South neighborhood kids who accepted the responsibility to go IB when it moved from the Scehenley building and took PAT buses to get there. Mom and Dad weren't driving them and some had a long and risky trek to public transportation. There are plenty of kids with the desire and for many the amount of support from home is a major factor in making their choice a good one. What we do a poor job at is convincing kids what they get in school is valuable.

Anonymous said...

http://www.wtae.com/news/perry-high-school-attack-caught-on-video/25027620

assault at Perry HS in a classroom
Pgh Police not involved yet

Questioner said...

Kids trekking long distances to IB were always a very small minority of students.

Anonymous said...

Questioner,

The assault mentioned by March 18 at 8:48 AM deserves its own post.

That was not two students just horsing around. One student went up and began punching the other student. When the victim fell to the floor, he was kicked.

According to the video, no charges have been filed yet. But what I find really appalling is that the district plans to hold a meeting with the students involved and their parents.

A student is brutually attacked and the district's response is some sort of mediation! The kid who was assaulted must be terrified at the thought of going to such a meeting. Is the district so afraid of bad PR that they won't call a criminal act a criminal act?

Please Questioner, don't let this assault get swept under the rug like so many others have been.

One reason Pittsburgh is in such a mess is that people don't know what's going on inside the schools. So nothing changes.

Questioner said...

The perry issue will be moved to its own post later today.

Anonymous said...

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2014/03/18/Perry-High-School-officials-to-meet-with-police-parents-about-fight/stories/201403180144

from P-G on Perry incident

Both classroom fights were when a substitute teacher was in charge.

Anonymous said...

So the riot in the gym at perry a few months ago was the fault of substitute teachers also right?. Perry is just out of control right now and the sooner the board admits that the sooner they can deal with the real problem.

Anonymous said...

I saw the mother of the beaten boy on the new and you know what I thought? What is wrong with her that she would send her 3 sons to a city school?

Anonymous said...

Apparently at this time..for school to really happen at Perry-- you need bouncers, not just security in every room. This is what to average kid is sitting and watching most days. As for "where are the teachers?" no one sent them to 6+ years of college etc to be be referees and bouncers. Last check even the subs are hired to TEACH.
Here's a thought-- Mark Brentley has done a super job of engaging fathers on their day. Let's take names this year and ask them to come into schools and...hang out. Maybe some grown men will settle things.
Reality is-- kids fight in school case its "safe"-- they and their parents assume that someone will break it up. If they were really tough-- they'd be fightin' out at the flagpole like their Dads generation did.
So bring in some of the wonderful men I met through Mr. Brentley's initiatiove and see how tough these bullies are.

Anonymous said...

5:56, I'm a big supporter of public education. Public education helped make America a true melting pot. But like you, I thought the same thing when I heard about that beating.

We are now at the point where - with some exceptions - it doesn't make sense to send your child to the Pittsburgh Public Schools.

The curriculum is garbage, teachers aren't allowed to innovate, and there is always that chance of violence, sometimes extreme violence.

Sad.

Anonymous said...

6:30, I agree with almost everything you said, especially about Mr. Brentley. It would be great to have a parent or two sitting in the back of a classroom.

But you are wrong about one thing. Kids don't fight in class because it's "safe". They fight in class because they know there's no penalty for doing so.

A student who beats up another student will - maybe - get three days suspension. That's time off to sleep in, then stay home and watch TV.

So why should a bully wait until after school to attack someone? The bully is free to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. The only "penalty" is a three-day vacation.

Anonymous said...

This portion of the article by Molly Born in the PG is troubling:

"Both students were disciplined following the first fight, Ms. Pugh said. Asked whether the substitute teacher, who called security during both incidents, faced any discipline, she said she was not aware of any pending action."

I think Ms. Pugh does an outstanding job but she faltered here. I am just a Mother, no credentials of any kind, but really, to leave readers with any impression that somehow the sub was in some way accountable? Holy cow! Using "not aware" implies some action is possible. For what? You want to hear something equally as outrageous as allowing anyone to think a sub should be disciplined because a fight broke out in a class? Why not arm all subs with pepper spray?

Anonymous said...

We have had this information about later start times for high school students for quite awhile yet PPS chooses not to act on this data. So much for EXCELLENCE FOR ALL1

Retired Teacher

Anonymous said...

Most if not all our 6-8 buildings have 9:05 or 9:10 start times and some elementary schools start at 9:05 too. We have fewer high schools now so why not make the time changes to help our high school kids do better? At least giving it a try will satisfy those of us who support later start times.