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How can it be determined that a teacher is ineffective? Debate at nytimescom:
http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/
25 comments:
Old Timer
said...
I'm a little taken aback by the placement of this article on this blog. We are at a turning point in Pittsburgh city schools and you bring New York into the mix, which unfortunately is a bird of a different feather. Perhaps you saw the editorial in TIME recently that detailed how teachers unions are hindering education in this country. The author took NYC schools to task, a district with one of the few powerful teacher unions still in existence. To wit, a teacher can perpetrate myriad offenses that would get him fired here immediately but in NYC simply placed in a "school" without students for a year or so. It's a "holding tank" mentality until NYC schools get around to dealing with the charges. That's not the case here. I question the timing of this because many parents don't know what is taking place in our district right now. They don't know that principals have been told to target a certain number of teachers for improvement, even if they don't have individuals who actually are ineffective. They've been told to put these teachers on improvement plans and continually visit them for observations. They have been told to use RISE observations as a tactic, as well. The union in this city is powerless and has watched a number of teachers...and I'll highlight this....
already get fired.
I implore the good people who run this website to ask questions. We are talking about peoples' livelihoods here. I am all for getting rid of "ineffective" teachers but the truth is, what we are seeing is vindictiveness and fear mongering.
It's just here b/c this is an issue being discussed in PPS; so often what is happening in PPS is part of a trend in many cities. The debate includes those questioning whether there are large numbers of ineffective teachers and advocating assistance rather than termination for those teachers.
I think the attempt to paint teachers as primarily lazy, criminal, etc. is all part of reform efforts across the country, here included. See Chicago and all the schools that were "closed," then "reopened as new schools" with all new teachers, see NYC where teachers made huge concessions in their last contract (added duties like hall and lunch, accepted a no raise agreement) and are still being vilified.
Attempts to co-opt or weaken unions are NOT unique to Pittsburgh. It's a concerted effort (a concerted and highly funded effort as we've seen here) to demean *all* teachers by pointing out the bad ones (which all professions have, of course) as being the norm.
I agree that all the "teacher effectiveness" and "improvement plans" are ways to get rid of teachers and to make it look like something is being done. In most schools everyone could tell you the person or people who should not be there. Instead, principals have to pick a (reportedly quite high) percentage to put on improvement plans. Does this mean that every single school has the same number of ineffective teachers? Is there never a bad fit between school, teacher, principal that's not related to a teacher's skills?
Who could not want effective teachers? Add it to the list: rigorous, excellence for all, etc.
It's not a bad curriculum or it's certainly not poverty or educational status of parents or even involvement of parents, you know...it's ALL and ALWAYS the teacher's fault. :-p
FYI- the number of PPS employees taking "advantage" of the $250 Giant Eagle "buyout" was only about 30 give or take a few. Maybe the wise ones are waiting to see what the new contract offers - whenever it is presented in its entirety. That is if it is ever presently in its entirety....
I had occasion to be in the BOE parking lot. There seems to be more reserved spaces for Director of This, COO, Director of That, and on and on. You could staff a small school with just the Directors from the PPS parking lot!! Put them all back in the classrooms. (if they were ever in one that is)
Questioner, your positioning is something akin to having a debate about juvenile delinquents who commit petty crimes and then highlighting an article about teens who kill and whether they deserve the death penalty. Your logic eludes me. Anon1, NYC's apparently still maintains its stranglehold where teacher firings are concerned, and sorry as I am to say, if this type of article is going to be presented then what you are going to have is the general public seeing teachers as the large problem this administration wants them to be seen as. I'll repeat this for Questioner or anyone else who doesn't quite understand, along with a bit of clarification...
good, dedicated, committed teachers are being fired.
Again, we are talking about people's lives here. I think most teachers would abhor what is going on in NYC with the protection of, let's face it, ineffective and often, downright criminal individuals. How they pertain to what is happening in our town is something I thought I would see coming from administration, not on a parent board.
And yes, in true corporate fashion, we almost have as many administrators now who are not in the classroom than we do teachers in the classroom. Here's a real funny thought:
why aren't they accountable? They are making more than teachers--funded by taxpayers--and truly have no accountability.
Again, I am taken aback as to why this article is here. It can only serve to bring applause among taxpayers for what the district is doing:
intimidating teaching staff, bringing the appearance of oversight and reinforcing to teachers just who is boss.
Amazing times. Who would ever wish to be a teacher in PPS under these circumstances?
Really, the reason the article is here is that we have an $85 million teacher effectivness program coming to Pittsburgh, and the NYT artcle discusses the issues involved with determining whether a teacher is effective.
Teacher effectiveness? Yeah, there may be one or two "ineffective" teachers in a given building, but what is happening in Pittsburgh Public Schools is an abomination.
Will Mr.Roosevelt step down if the district doesn't raise scores?
It's a shame that some here put more stock in the fate of the old Schenley building than the idea of human beings are being fired without reason and that individuals who don't have teaching degrees may soon be in front of their children.
It's a shame that some here put more stock in the fate of the old Schenley building than the idea of human beings are being fired without reason and that individuals who don't have teaching degrees may soon be in front of their children.
It's a shame that some here put stock in the idea that people can only care about one thing and that insulting and demeaning others is the best way to influence people.
What's the reasoning behind believing that people without teaching degrees are going to be teaching soon? I'd much rather be informed by you than called an idiot. I'm sure you've figured out in your time teaching that it's not very motivational to students telling them they're idiots.
Will Mr.Roosevelt step down if the district doesn't raise scores?
He should have already then -- he hasn't done more with scores than the average superintendent in the state. In many cases, while scores went up last year, it was only to the levels they were at several years ago.
The Schenley building is the concrete symbol for what is happening to the teachers. If Roosevelt says you are an ineffective teacher (and obviously he has the experience-or lack there of- to make this call) then you are an ineffective teacher. Just as when Roosevelt said Schenley was a danger (it was not) to the occupants (again his experience helped to make that call)and the school was quickly closed.
Until Roosevelt and many of the board members are replaced (with people who are actually qualified), great teachers, great students and great parents will suffer because of the poor actions of a few. Many problems can not be solved with broad stokes of a brush (made with money) but need the delicate touch of an experienced surgeon.
Many parents are paying attention to the Effective Teacher initiative simply to be able to defend teachers without whom their kids might have struggled or given up. We are left to express our opinions in very general terms at parent meetings and at times the average parent (me) could be deemed to be approaching the topic from an emotional level. Yeah that's right. Can't help it. I remember vividly when my kid had the motivational fire ignited and the teacher who lit the match. I also remember the teacher as critical of some new curriculum and other changes. Would that teacher fall to the short list?
Re: people without teaching degrees teaching- that is the word from some people who have attended meetings on this topic- that there will be a push toward nontraditional teachers, just as the Broad Academy has sought nontraditional superintendents. Will try to get more information.
The irony of the PFT going along with the "teacher effectiveness" initiatives, is that for years the PFT would vigorously defend ineffective teachers. Now they are going to go along with getting rid of so-called ineffective teachers. I have seen them in the past defend some individuals who had no business teaching. I am not defining "ineffective" based on teaching scores either.
I am hopeful that some way, somehow, good, solid teachers who are being put through this process are documenting every little thing. I am hopeful that somehow, lawsuits will be filed because let's be truthful, this administration knows it has "busted" the union and feels no need to listen to teachers or parents. It will however listen to judges.
Did anyone take notice of WTAE's expose about the district process of calling off yesterday? You actually saw the man caught in lies on local TV! Shocking in this market. He tried to intimate that the the cancellation was ordered shortly after 7, while TAE noted that the news did not come to them until after 8:30, nor did it register on the district's website until after that time.
Meanwhile, more than a few principals told their staffs that teachers who did not report would be docked a day's pay (that has since been amended.)
Imagine that. As a teacher, you are on your way to school. You are almost there and here the radio say "Pittsburgh Public Schools are now closed." And that's all. You come all the way home and receive a phone call an hour later that says, "all staff must report."
You now battle worse conditions and stand-still traffic. You get to school only to find that the board has said, "hey, it's only a half day."
And then you watch your boss lie about it all on TV.
Not only is this the Keystone Cops method of running a district, it becomes clear as to just WHO is running your district.
I think this entire discussion loses something on parents, and that's the problem. When one hears the word "ineffective", it conjures up images of individuals whom we all know should not be in the classroom, in front of our kids, wasting their time.
The problem is, people who could be described as anything-but ineffective are being targeted and in many cases, fired. Many good people that parents would want to have as the teachers of their kids are victims of a bogey--victims of the Roosevelt administration, who have told principals, find this percentage of teachers or we will find them for you.
In many regards, one's perceptions are one's reality. It's hard to find true, reliable news on a message board. Well, ask around about this one. I have talked to at least three administrators who are highly troubled by what they have been told to do, and feel they have no recourse.
So how does one land on an improvement plan, indeed the first step to dismissal. Stray from the curriculum one bit and you are a target. Give an opinion at professional development or faculty meetings and you have affixed your own bull's eye. Write too many referrals and have your supervision skills questioned. But most notably, have the kids talk poorly of you and now, you are a target.
Again, I am all for removing people who aren't effective. You will have to take my word for it in saying that when popular, highly effective teachers are dismissed, especially in this economy, it is extremely troubling.
What worries me most is how little time I have left to be a PPS parent. I want to sit down right now with my kids' yearbooks and make the list of teachers I found to be effective for my kids. Trouble is I would be labeled an out-of-control parent when I presented the lists to principals with a warning not to mess with those on the list. See. Even that last sentence makes me look angry.
Mr. Roosevelt does an excellent job of divide and conquer, pitting one group against another. I will admit up-front that I am a Schenley parent who fought the closing of our school, so I guess that means i can't understand the other issues. Like anon 8:37 wrote, the closing of Schenley is something concrete that everyone can see. I have not personally experienced the removal of good effective teachers. I do not doubt that it is happening since I totally distrust this admin., but I have not yet experienced it. I have seen several of my son's ineffective middle school teachers somewhat unexpectedly retire after years of parental complaints. Maybe that was due to pressure from the principal or just natural timing. I have also seen some very good teachers from that same school transfer to other PPS buildings in an effort to work for a different principal. From my point of view, the principal seems to be the critical component here.
A detailed understanding of the Schenley issue provides an excellent background for understanding the administration's approach to many other PPS issues.
I can understand what anonymous is saying about things depending on the principal but I think that in some ways, one has to understand their situations, too. Most PELA principals and even Non-PELA are very young and to me, this was part of the plan of the Roosevelts. Get rid of the old guard and bring in new, young people who can't afford to question. And when you get down to it, the equation is simple: do what you are told or we'll get rid of you instead. No, this issue comes from central administration. Sure, there are some outrageous "true-believers" that take their task with a little too much glee and understandably, teachers migrate elsewhere, but this is beyond what's actually going on in the schools.
25 comments:
I'm a little taken aback by the placement of this article on this blog. We are at a turning point in Pittsburgh city schools and you bring New York into the mix, which unfortunately is a bird of a different feather. Perhaps you saw the editorial in TIME recently that detailed how teachers unions are hindering education in this country. The author took NYC schools to task, a district with one of the few powerful teacher unions still in existence. To wit, a teacher can perpetrate myriad offenses that would get him fired here immediately but in NYC simply placed in a "school" without students for a year or so. It's a "holding tank" mentality until NYC schools get around to dealing with the charges.
That's not the case here.
I question the timing of this because many parents don't know what is taking place in our district right now. They don't know that principals have been told to target a certain number of teachers for improvement, even if they don't have individuals who actually are ineffective. They've been told to put these teachers on improvement plans and continually visit them for observations.
They have been told to use RISE observations as a tactic, as well.
The union in this city is powerless and has watched a number of teachers...and I'll highlight this....
already get fired.
I implore the good people who run this website to ask questions.
We are talking about peoples' livelihoods here. I am all for getting rid of "ineffective" teachers but the truth is, what we are seeing is vindictiveness and fear mongering.
Thanks for your time.
It's just here b/c this is an issue being discussed in PPS; so often what is happening in PPS is part of a trend in many cities. The debate includes those questioning whether there are large numbers of ineffective teachers and advocating assistance rather than termination for those teachers.
I think the attempt to paint teachers as primarily lazy, criminal, etc. is all part of reform efforts across the country, here included. See Chicago and all the schools that were "closed," then "reopened as new schools" with all new teachers, see NYC where teachers made huge concessions in their last contract (added duties like hall and lunch, accepted a no raise agreement) and are still being vilified.
Attempts to co-opt or weaken unions are NOT unique to Pittsburgh. It's a concerted effort (a concerted and highly funded effort as we've seen here) to demean *all* teachers by pointing out the bad ones (which all professions have, of course) as being the norm.
I agree that all the "teacher effectiveness" and "improvement plans" are ways to get rid of teachers and to make it look like something is being done. In most schools everyone could tell you the person or people who should not be there. Instead, principals have to pick a (reportedly quite high) percentage to put on improvement plans. Does this mean that every single school has the same number of ineffective teachers? Is there never a bad fit between school, teacher, principal that's not related to a teacher's skills?
Who could not want effective teachers? Add it to the list: rigorous, excellence for all, etc.
It's not a bad curriculum or it's certainly not poverty or educational status of parents or even involvement of parents, you know...it's ALL and ALWAYS the teacher's fault. :-p
If Bill Gates says it's the teachers' fault it is. Money talks.
FYI- the number of PPS employees taking "advantage" of the $250 Giant Eagle "buyout" was only about 30 give or take a few. Maybe the wise ones are waiting to see what the new contract offers - whenever it is presented in its entirety. That is if it is ever presently in its entirety....
I had occasion to be in the BOE parking lot. There seems to be more reserved spaces for Director of This, COO, Director of That, and on and on. You could staff a small school with just the Directors from the PPS parking lot!! Put them all back in the classrooms. (if they were ever in one that is)
Questioner, your positioning is something akin to having a debate about juvenile delinquents who commit petty crimes and then highlighting an article about teens who kill and whether they deserve the death penalty. Your logic eludes me.
Anon1, NYC's apparently still maintains its stranglehold where teacher firings are concerned, and sorry as I am to say, if this type of article is going to be presented then what you are going to have is the general public seeing teachers as the large problem this administration wants them to be seen as.
I'll repeat this for Questioner or anyone else who doesn't quite understand, along with a bit of clarification...
good, dedicated, committed teachers are being fired.
Again, we are talking about people's lives here. I think most teachers would abhor what is going on in NYC with the protection of, let's face it, ineffective and often, downright criminal individuals. How they pertain to what is happening in our town is something I thought I would see coming from administration, not on a parent board.
And yes, in true corporate fashion, we almost have as many administrators now who are not in the classroom than we do teachers in the classroom. Here's a real funny thought:
why aren't they accountable? They are making more than teachers--funded by taxpayers--and truly have no accountability.
Again, I am taken aback as to why this article is here. It can only serve to bring applause among taxpayers for what the district is doing:
intimidating teaching staff, bringing the appearance of oversight and reinforcing to teachers just who is boss.
Amazing times. Who would ever wish to be a teacher in PPS under these circumstances?
How can union leaders sleep?
Really, the reason the article is here is that we have an $85 million teacher effectivness program coming to Pittsburgh, and the NYT artcle discusses the issues involved with determining whether a teacher is effective.
Teacher effectiveness? Yeah, there may be one or two "ineffective" teachers in a given building, but what is happening in Pittsburgh Public Schools is an abomination.
Will Mr.Roosevelt step down if the district doesn't raise scores?
It's a shame that some here put more stock in the fate of the old Schenley building than the idea of human beings are being fired without reason and that individuals who don't have teaching degrees may soon be in front of their children.
How about "ineffective parents"???
Many here care about the Schenley building and its special history and culture, and also the well being of teachers, and parent engagement!
It's a shame that some here put more stock in the fate of the old Schenley building than the idea of human beings are being fired without reason and that individuals who don't have teaching degrees may soon be in front of their children.
It's a shame that some here put stock in the idea that people can only care about one thing and that insulting and demeaning others is the best way to influence people.
What's the reasoning behind believing that people without teaching degrees are going to be teaching soon? I'd much rather be informed by you than called an idiot. I'm sure you've figured out in your time teaching that it's not very motivational to students telling them they're idiots.
Will Mr.Roosevelt step down if the district doesn't raise scores?
He should have already then -- he hasn't done more with scores than the average superintendent in the state. In many cases, while scores went up last year, it was only to the levels they were at several years ago.
But you wouldn't know it reading the paper.
The Schenley building is the concrete symbol for what is happening to the teachers. If Roosevelt says you are an ineffective teacher (and obviously he has the experience-or lack there of- to make this call) then you are an ineffective teacher. Just as when Roosevelt said Schenley was a danger (it was not) to the occupants (again his experience helped to make that call)and the school was quickly closed.
Until Roosevelt and many of the board members are replaced (with people who are actually qualified), great teachers, great students and great parents will suffer because of the poor actions of a few. Many problems can not be solved with broad stokes of a brush (made with money) but need the delicate touch of an experienced surgeon.
Many parents are paying attention to the Effective Teacher initiative simply to be able to defend teachers without whom their kids might have struggled or given up. We are left to express our opinions in very general terms at parent meetings and at times the average parent (me) could be deemed to be approaching the topic from an emotional level. Yeah that's right. Can't help it. I remember vividly when my kid had the motivational fire ignited and the teacher who lit the match. I also remember the teacher as critical of some new curriculum and other changes. Would that teacher fall to the short list?
Re: people without teaching degrees teaching- that is the word from some people who have attended meetings on this topic- that there will be a push toward nontraditional teachers, just as the Broad Academy has sought nontraditional superintendents. Will try to get more information.
The irony of the PFT going along with the "teacher effectiveness" initiatives, is that for years the PFT would vigorously defend ineffective teachers. Now they are going to go along with getting rid of so-called ineffective teachers. I have seen them in the past defend some individuals who had no business teaching. I am not defining "ineffective" based on teaching scores either.
I am hopeful that some way, somehow, good, solid teachers who are being put through this process are documenting every little thing. I am hopeful that somehow, lawsuits will be filed because let's be truthful, this administration knows it has "busted" the union and feels no need to listen to teachers or parents. It will however listen to judges.
Did anyone take notice of WTAE's expose about the district process of calling off yesterday? You actually saw the man caught in lies on local TV! Shocking in this market. He tried to intimate that the the cancellation was ordered shortly after 7, while TAE noted that the news did not come to them until after 8:30, nor did it register on the district's website until after that time.
Meanwhile, more than a few principals told their staffs that teachers who did not report would be docked a day's pay (that has since been amended.)
Imagine that. As a teacher, you are on your way to school. You are almost there and here the radio say "Pittsburgh Public Schools are now closed." And that's all. You come all the way home and receive a phone call an hour later that says, "all staff must report."
You now battle worse conditions and stand-still traffic. You get to school only to find that the board has said, "hey, it's only a half day."
And then you watch your boss lie about it all on TV.
Not only is this the Keystone Cops method of running a district, it becomes clear as to just WHO is running your district.
Who is it that was on TV?
I think this entire discussion loses something on parents, and that's the problem. When one hears the word "ineffective", it conjures up images of individuals whom we all know should not be in the classroom, in front of our kids, wasting their time.
The problem is, people who could be described as anything-but ineffective are being targeted and in many cases, fired. Many good people that parents would want to have as the teachers of their kids are victims of a bogey--victims of the Roosevelt administration, who have told principals, find this percentage of teachers or we will find them for you.
In many regards, one's perceptions are one's reality. It's hard to find true, reliable news on a message board. Well, ask around about this one. I have talked to at least three administrators who are highly troubled by what they have been told to do, and feel they have no recourse.
So how does one land on an improvement plan, indeed the first step to dismissal. Stray from the curriculum one bit and you are a target. Give an opinion at professional development or faculty meetings and you have affixed your own bull's eye. Write too many referrals and have your supervision skills questioned. But most notably, have the kids talk poorly of you and now, you are a target.
Again, I am all for removing people who aren't effective. You will have to take my word for it in saying that when popular, highly effective teachers are dismissed, especially in this economy, it is extremely troubling.
Roosevelt was on TV, Questioner.
Perhaps TAE has the piece on its website.
Amazing. I saw it too.
It's always someone else's fault, right Mark?
http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/weather/22680204/detail.html
What worries me most is how little time I have left to be a PPS parent. I want to sit down right now with my kids' yearbooks and make the list of teachers I found to be effective for my kids. Trouble is I would be labeled an out-of-control parent when I presented the lists to principals with a warning not to mess with those on the list. See. Even that last sentence makes me look angry.
Mr. Roosevelt does an excellent job of divide and conquer, pitting one group against another. I will admit up-front that I am a Schenley parent who fought the closing of our school, so I guess that means i can't understand the other issues. Like anon 8:37 wrote, the closing of Schenley is something concrete that everyone can see. I have not personally experienced the removal of good effective teachers. I do not doubt that it is happening since I totally distrust this admin., but I have not yet experienced it. I have seen several of my son's ineffective middle school teachers somewhat unexpectedly retire after years of parental complaints. Maybe that was due to pressure from the principal or just natural timing. I have also seen some very good teachers from that same school transfer to other PPS buildings in an effort to work for a different principal. From my point of view, the principal seems to be the critical component here.
A detailed understanding of the Schenley issue provides an excellent background for understanding the administration's approach to many other PPS issues.
I can understand what anonymous is saying about things depending on the principal but I think that in some ways, one has to understand their situations, too. Most PELA principals and even Non-PELA are very young and to me, this was part of the plan of the Roosevelts. Get rid of the old guard and bring in new, young people who can't afford to question.
And when you get down to it, the equation is simple: do what you are told or we'll get rid of you instead. No, this issue comes from central administration. Sure, there are some outrageous "true-believers" that take their task with a little too much glee and understandably, teachers migrate elsewhere, but this is beyond what's actually going on in the schools.
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