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This is surprising, since results for 3rd and 4th grade were flat or very slightly up or down. The 5th grade did well so maybe that was enough to carry the other grades.
I know grades 3 to 8 and grade 11 are tested, but do all results for each grade factor in to making AYP? Didn't it used to be 5-8-11 that ultimately decided AYP?
In any event CONGRATULATIONS to our teachers who got PPS to AYP.
The PPG article says that AYP was made "for the elementary grade span," and since grades 1 and 2 are not tested the elementary grade span would seem to be tests in grades 3, 4 and 5.
It doesn't seem like the whole PPS district made AYP. 11th grade results in particular were not good.
The entire district made AYP this year: http://kdka.com/local/pittsburgh.public.schools.2.1121947.html
And once again, Roosevelt is thanking teachers and administrators. He'll also be trumpeting the incredibly brilliant curriculum tomorrow evening. Hey Mark, want to thank teachers? Give them a raise.
When the details are available it could be that SAFE HARBOR got some grades to AYP. Perfectly acceptable. Maybe we should make a list of all the potential contributors to the milestone. There will be the obvious of course. Pittsburgh Promise, curriculum changes, Triumphs and Treasures, new math program in elementary, PELA, professional development, and....
Too bad you can't divvy out the praise accurately and even a survey might not prove reliable.
Congratulations! Your children have done it again. The summer of good news continues, thanks to the hard work of your children, support from families, the effective administration of the District’s Excellence for All agenda and dedicated teachers and administrators. The Pittsburgh Public School District has achieved AYP, please read the attached press release, then tell your kids how proud you are of them for making history.
Mark, I like where Mr.Connor places teachers. That pretty much sums it all up. Disposable. Forgettable. This accomplishment came down to the students and the teachers. Period. Administrators provided a curriculum that had little to do with PSSA testing. That Administrators and Principals would even be mentioned borders somewhere between nauseating and mind-numbing. In order for this district to achieve AYP in the area of reading specifically, let me say what Mr.Roosevelt did not say: Teachers, congratulations. At every level, you saw the folly of the curriculum, how poor it was in addressing student needs and went the extra mile to make sure they were test-ready. Thanks to you and the efforts of your students, this district accomplished something no other urban district ever has. Congratulations again.
You're right Mark it is NCLB. Since there is no nationwide test I suppose we are the largest PA district ever to make AYP. I will watch the press conference video again and read all the documentation again. We get more detail after the Education Committee presentation tomorrow. I think most parents are interested in how our kids' schools did and we will be able to see that tomorrow. The PPS site provides the same presentations given to committees on the site normally same day.
Anonymous 3:38, honest, we parents appreciate all teachers do. The July press conference spent a lot of time highlighting what teachers and coaches did to contribute to the successes featured that day.
Updated article from the PG explaining that the district made AYP based on the scores of students in grades 3-5:
"Each state sets its own standards for AYP, and Pennsylvania recognizes three grade spans -- 3-5, 6-8 and 11.
For 2008-09, a district made AYP if at least 56 percent of students in at least one grade span scored advanced or proficient in math and if at least 63 percent of students in the same span scored advanced or proficient in reading. To make AYP outright, the span's various subgroups--such as black, poor or special education students -- also had to meet achievement targets. Additional factors, including the district's graduation rate, also help to determine AYP status."
The article notes that the district has not yet provided scores and the state has not yet provided explanatory data.
Also, it is not clear from the article how this year's AYP requirements differed from last year's requirements, and whether AYP standards are set in advance. Do we know for example what percentage of students will need to be proficient in order to meet AYP for next year? It seems that it would be helpful to know ahead of time what we are aiming for.
Since students need to have certain grades to play sports- it seems like coaches have a role in helping them to achieve those grades, for example by discussing goals, encouraging students, arranging for tutoring, etc. And, the discipline required by sports could well carry over to academics.
The article mentions PURE's concerns about graduation rates. However, it mentions an 85% graduation rate, which is very different from the RAND results referred to in Pittsburgh Promise presentations, which mention a third of students dropping out.
The difference seems to be at least in part that Rand looked at the percentage of entering 9th graders that graduate, while statistics giving graduation rates in the 80's are based on the percentage of students who start 12th grade who finish out the year. The RAND inquiry seems much more relevant, but apparently graduation rates using the RAND approach have not been updated for several years.
Coaches. Well, the PPS uses the world "coach" to talk about a specialized teacher in a building that has a focus area of subject matter and is without a regular classroom assignment. The PPS 'coach' has nothing to do with sports and athletics and afterschool.
I don't like that they use the word coach for a person who is clearly not an 'athletic team coach' as the rest of the world understands that term. It just adds to the edu-speak bull shit and confusion. Might as well start calling Vo-Tech, Science & Technology, then. Oh well.
The PPS Academic Coach is part tutor, motivator, teacher of teachers and benchmark judge/guru. PPS has Reading Coaches, Math Coaches and such.
Graduation rates are not always as they seem either. It seems that some score graduation rates as a measure of those who drop out within their senior year. That's it. So, that might be why the 85% rate. In that style of counting and reporting, perhaps the easiest to get high rates, the ones that drop out of HIGH SCHOOL are not ever a factor for GRADUATION RATEs.
Kids quit in and after 9th, 10th, 11th grade. Those kids won't show up if the graduation rate is only watching the incoming seniors to the ones that get their diploma as the class exits.
I think that the Pgh Promise folks were looking at the whole landscape from the start of 9th grade to the high school diploma, and beyond. Their reporting and speech making said that (I think) 2or 3 out of 20 9th graders in Pgh will be able to navigate the future educational opportunities and get to graduate from college.
The specific numbers are not at my fingertips -- but they are not good. That's more FEAR.
Mark, you wrote: "The PPS Academic Coach is part tutor, motivator, teacher of teachers and benchmark judge/guru. PPS has Reading Coaches, Math Coaches and such" Good definition. Unfortunately, few of these people "teach teachers" and fewer "motivate." Just another way to spread the credit where credit ISN'T due, a continual MR ploy.
Thanks Mark R. for clarifying the definition of coaches for me. I should have been specific by saying Curriculum coaches when I posted about the July 23 press conference. You won't find it in any Curriculum coach's job description but as a parent I expect a COACH to challenge what the curriculum writers deliver. I I expect some backbone and an advocate for my kid in a coach. I also would be disappointed to know a coach wasn't presenting the opinions of the teachers in the trenches as part of his/her responsibilities.
Good morning everyone! I spoke with a gentleman yesterday from the PA Department of Education and he said that the PSSA scores for 08-09 are not out yet. The districts have access to them first and have a two week period to file and appeal. They were suprised that PPS went public with their press conference. The scores will be out either by end of August beginning of September.
Stephanie, do you mean that the state has a figure for the percentage of PPS 3-5 graders proficient in reading and math, and has determined that they meet the 63% and 57% requirements, but have not yet released what the PPS percentage is?
I’m surprised that I read in the newspaper this morning that Education Secretary Zahorchak gave PPS the Kudos especially before the scores were public.
The PA Department of Education posts these stats yearly on their website. When I read yesterday that PPS knew their scores I was curious how PPS got them because PDE usually published the scores late. That is when I called Harrisburg. I am sure you know the web link http://paayp.emetric.net/ to the scores.
This is the website where you can look at each individual school building in PPS as well as how each building, grade and sub group did.
Stephanie, thanks for the confirmation that the individual school scores won't be available for a few weeks. It is really what parents want to see to allow us to feel comfort in the decisions we make for our kids.
At our PSCC meetings this year our principal was careful to be sure we understood the changes to our curriculum coach's repsonsibilities. Each coach in the two buildings where my kids attend taught two sections of the subject for which they coached. Each principal spoke positively of the new model. I hoped that the coach as teacher would allow the coach to better test the new curriculums.
Mary Griffin is about to talk about test scores in the 11:00 hour on KDKA. Yippee.
dee, your idea of a coach is a bit off. These folks aren't motivating teachers. They are certainly not teaching experienced classroom teachers anything, and the idea of backbone is not in the equation. Instead, these folks are intermediaries. They bring what they learn from supervisors to the teachers themselves. They are messengers.
I have to disagree a bit about the general thoughts on coaches. Some have tremendous backbone and I knew at least one who challenged and challenged new initiatives and the curriculum in the first year PPS had the initial coaching model. We each have moved on, he to a new position. Perhaps he had too much backbone?
The coaches in the PPS are for the most part the least experienced teacher's. I have only met two that had over 10 years teaching experience. Some can not handle the classroom and this was their way out. A good number of these coaches were displaced teachers a few years back and they applied for these positions. It is also a fast track to the pela program. The Reading Coaches and Math Coaches at Allderdice over the last two years were a joke. They just passed PPS information on and some other useless crap. The PD,s are a horrible waste of time, they are the same every year. All PPS Coaches are is yes people trying two climb their way two the Ivory Tower, for the most part. The coaches never worked with children all year, they just were junior administrator's at Mr Sherre's disposal. What a waste of money, just a new useless level of middle management. I do not think these people should belong to our pathetic teachers union.
Agreed, although I do not know what you are referring to about "Mr.Sherre". I would agree with most of your commentary although, some coaches were hired by principals either because they were "favorites" or because their abilities in the classroom would not be missed. dee talks about backbone. I know numerous teachers at numerous schools--many who post here---and none have anything good to say about the coaches. If anything, these folks enjoy not being in the classroom and forgot they were teachers to begin with. Backbone? They tend to do the communicating for reading and math supervisors. No way they should be part of the PFT. And you say the PDs are the same every year? What happens when you have a PD or two, or three, or four...every week...and the meeting time is pointless?
I am beginning to think I may be a victim of messages put out by convincing principals, but I prefer to think there are a few exceptions to the description of the coaches posted about here. It helps that some of us are confident enough to speak clearly and mention schools by name. For some of us, our kids have already had to live down our reputations as "out of control parents" on other topics.
Deegazette, You were not mislead by a convincing principal. Not all coaches live ivory towers or are mini-administrators. Not all fled the classroom. I can think of a half dozen off the top of my head with more than 10 years experience who were excellent as teachers and are excellent as coaches. If I were to review an entire list, I believe it would be longer. It sounds like anon is a bit disgruntled. Not all schools work in that atmosphere. I agree with many of the posters that this is something to celebrate the accomplishment(briefly!!). It's not a time to knit-pick the order in which people are thanked.
I am in agreement with the last poster to a certain extent. I worked at one of the schools that was lauded at the July press conference. I worked very hard to raise our kids' PSSA scores. Everyone did. I am happy for the school and for the kids. In truthfulness, I could care less who gets the publicity or what order the thanks is given. It doesn't amount to more pay and getting notoriety is not why I entered education. I enjoy coming to this site from time to time and reading the viewpoints. Some here are congratulatory about the results and some feel insulted. At the end of the day, what does it really matter? The kids achieved.
It explains that NCLB aims to have ALL public school students proficient in reading and math by the 2013-2014 school year. States determined in advance the target levels for each year up to 2013-2014. (Although not mentioned in this article, most states including PA planned the sharpest gains for the last few years of the NCLB timeframe, from 2010 on. The goal for 2008-2009 was Reading 63% proficient and Math 56% proficient.)
The article also explains the safe harbor: "If a school or subgroup does not meet the performance targets but does reduce the percentage of below-proficient students by 10 percent or more, the sate will consider it to have met AYP for this target area."
PPS is a big and diverse district. I'm not suprised that we've got different experiences and perspectives on a number of issues. Hence, this is why the interactions here are of big value.
Let's all agree, however, that the word 'coach' needs to be modified with either the sports/athletic coach or the academic/curriculum coach.
Funny, I feel strongly that the sports coaches should not be a part of the Teachers Union too.
Most sports coaches are teachers, so your logic escapes me a bit there, Mark. I know that there is a percentage of teachers taking a coaching job just for a paycheck and yet, I know there are many dedicated individuals who coach and truly lose money as they spend a great many hours, purchase equipment and the like. There's good and bad in everything.
37 comments:
This is surprising, since results for 3rd and 4th grade were flat or very slightly up or down. The 5th grade did well so maybe that was enough to carry the other grades.
I know grades 3 to 8 and grade 11 are tested, but do all results for each grade factor in to making AYP? Didn't it used to be 5-8-11 that ultimately decided AYP?
In any event CONGRATULATIONS to our teachers who got PPS to AYP.
The PPG article says that AYP was made "for the elementary grade span," and since grades 1 and 2 are not tested the elementary grade span would seem to be tests in grades 3, 4 and 5.
It doesn't seem like the whole PPS district made AYP. 11th grade results in particular were not good.
The entire district made AYP this year:
http://kdka.com/local/pittsburgh.public.schools.2.1121947.html
And once again, Roosevelt is thanking teachers and administrators. He'll also be trumpeting the incredibly brilliant curriculum tomorrow evening.
Hey Mark, want to thank teachers? Give them a raise.
When the details are available it could be that SAFE HARBOR got some grades to AYP. Perfectly acceptable. Maybe we should make a list of all the potential contributors to the milestone. There will be the obvious of course. Pittsburgh Promise, curriculum changes, Triumphs and Treasures, new math program in elementary, PELA, professional development, and....
Too bad you can't divvy out the praise accurately and even a survey might not prove reliable.
Still, quite an accomplishment.
Link to the PDF of the PPS news release:
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/fixpa/images/1/18/PPS_gets_AYP_08_10_09.pdf
Text of an email from Mark Conner, PPS employee.
Congratulations! Your children have done it again. The summer of good news continues, thanks to the hard work of your children, support from families, the effective administration of the District’s Excellence for All agenda and dedicated teachers and administrators. The Pittsburgh Public School District has achieved AYP, please read the attached press release, then tell your kids how proud you are of them for making history.
Mark, I like where Mr.Connor places teachers. That pretty much sums it all up. Disposable. Forgettable.
This accomplishment came down to the students and the teachers. Period.
Administrators provided a curriculum that had little to do with PSSA testing. That Administrators and Principals would even be mentioned borders somewhere between nauseating and mind-numbing. In order for this district to achieve AYP in the area of reading specifically, let me say what Mr.Roosevelt did not say:
Teachers, congratulations. At every level, you saw the folly of the curriculum, how poor it was in addressing student needs and went the extra mile to make sure they were test-ready. Thanks to you and the efforts of your students, this district accomplished something no other urban district ever has.
Congratulations again.
No other urban district ever made AYP?
KDKA reported that PPS is the largest urban district ever to make AYP in the state, not the only.
Isn't AYP a NCLB thing? Hence Feds?
You're right Mark it is NCLB. Since there is no nationwide test I suppose we are the largest PA district ever to make AYP. I will watch the press conference video again and read all the documentation again. We get more detail after the Education Committee presentation tomorrow. I think most parents are interested in how our kids' schools did and we will be able to see that tomorrow. The PPS site provides the same presentations given to committees on the site normally same day.
Anonymous 3:38, honest, we parents appreciate all teachers do. The July press conference spent a lot of time highlighting what teachers and coaches did to contribute to the successes featured that day.
Let me jump in here---coaches??? Why coaches??? You're off target with that one.
Updated article from the PG explaining that the district made AYP based on the scores of students in grades 3-5:
"Each state sets its own standards for AYP, and Pennsylvania recognizes three grade spans -- 3-5, 6-8 and 11.
For 2008-09, a district made AYP if at least 56 percent of students in at least one grade span scored advanced or proficient in math and if at least 63 percent of students in the same span scored advanced or proficient in reading. To make AYP outright, the span's various subgroups--such as black, poor or special education students -- also had to meet achievement targets.
Additional factors, including the district's graduation rate, also help to determine AYP status."
Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09223/990029-298.stm#ixzz0Ns7BUjKC
The article notes that the district has not yet provided scores and the state has not yet provided explanatory data.
Also, it is not clear from the article how this year's AYP requirements differed from last year's requirements, and whether AYP standards are set in advance. Do we know for example what percentage of students will need to be proficient in order to meet AYP for next year? It seems that it would be helpful to know ahead of time what we are aiming for.
Since students need to have certain grades to play sports- it seems like coaches have a role in helping them to achieve those grades, for example by discussing goals, encouraging students, arranging for tutoring, etc. And, the discipline required by sports could well carry over to academics.
Tribune article:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_637661.html
The article mentions PURE's concerns about graduation rates. However, it mentions an 85% graduation rate, which is very different from the RAND results referred to in Pittsburgh Promise presentations, which mention a third of students dropping out.
The difference seems to be at least in part that Rand looked at the percentage of entering 9th graders that graduate, while statistics giving graduation rates in the 80's are based on the percentage of students who start 12th grade who finish out the year. The RAND inquiry seems much more relevant, but apparently graduation rates using the RAND approach have not been updated for several years.
Coaches. Well, the PPS uses the world "coach" to talk about a specialized teacher in a building that has a focus area of subject matter and is without a regular classroom assignment. The PPS 'coach' has nothing to do with sports and athletics and afterschool.
I don't like that they use the word coach for a person who is clearly not an 'athletic team coach' as the rest of the world understands that term. It just adds to the edu-speak bull shit and confusion. Might as well start calling Vo-Tech, Science & Technology, then. Oh well.
The PPS Academic Coach is part tutor, motivator, teacher of teachers and benchmark judge/guru. PPS has Reading Coaches, Math Coaches and such.
FUD alert:
Graduation rates are not always as they seem either. It seems that some score graduation rates as a measure of those who drop out within their senior year. That's it. So, that might be why the 85% rate. In that style of counting and reporting, perhaps the easiest to get high rates, the ones that drop out of HIGH SCHOOL are not ever a factor for GRADUATION RATEs.
Kids quit in and after 9th, 10th, 11th grade. Those kids won't show up if the graduation rate is only watching the incoming seniors to the ones that get their diploma as the class exits.
I think that the Pgh Promise folks were looking at the whole landscape from the start of 9th grade to the high school diploma, and beyond. Their reporting and speech making said that (I think) 2or 3 out of 20 9th graders in Pgh will be able to navigate the future educational opportunities and get to graduate from college.
The specific numbers are not at my fingertips -- but they are not good. That's more FEAR.
Mark, you wrote:
"The PPS Academic Coach is part tutor, motivator, teacher of teachers and benchmark judge/guru. PPS has Reading Coaches, Math Coaches and such"
Good definition. Unfortunately, few of these people "teach teachers" and fewer "motivate."
Just another way to spread the credit where credit ISN'T due, a continual MR ploy.
Thanks Mark R. for clarifying the definition of coaches for me. I should have been specific by saying Curriculum coaches when I posted about the July 23 press conference. You won't find it in any Curriculum coach's job description but as a parent I expect a COACH to challenge what the curriculum writers deliver. I I expect some backbone and an advocate for my kid in a coach. I also would be disappointed to know a coach wasn't presenting the opinions of the teachers in the trenches as part of his/her responsibilities.
I hope I am rwong but...
I will pause here to let the laughter die down.
Good morning everyone! I spoke with a gentleman yesterday from the PA Department of Education and he said that the PSSA scores for 08-09 are not out yet. The districts have access to them first and have a two week period to file and appeal. They were suprised that PPS went public with their press conference. The scores will be out either by end of August beginning of September.
Stephanie, do you mean that the state has a figure for the percentage of PPS 3-5 graders proficient in reading and math, and has determined that they meet the 63% and 57% requirements, but have not yet released what the PPS percentage is?
Maybe they went public to try to help get Gates money.
I’m surprised that I read in the newspaper this morning that Education Secretary Zahorchak gave PPS the Kudos especially before the scores were public.
The PA Department of Education posts these stats yearly on their website. When I read yesterday that PPS knew their scores I was curious how PPS got them because PDE usually published the scores late. That is when I called Harrisburg. I am sure you know the web link http://paayp.emetric.net/ to the scores.
This is the website where you can look at each individual school building in PPS as well as how each building, grade and sub group did.
http://paayp.emetric.net/District/SchoolList/c40/118406602
Hopefully the links work.
Sorry here is right link to PPS.
http://paayp.emetric.net/County/DistrictList/i2
KDKA Radio Marty Griffin is talking about PPS and test scores.RIGHT NOW am 1020
Stephanie, thanks for the confirmation that the individual school scores won't be available for a few weeks. It is really what parents want to see to allow us to feel comfort in the decisions we make for our kids.
At our PSCC meetings this year our principal was careful to be sure we understood the changes to our curriculum coach's repsonsibilities. Each coach in the two buildings where my kids attend taught two sections of the subject for which they coached. Each principal spoke positively of the new model. I hoped that the coach as teacher would allow the coach to better test the new curriculums.
Mary Griffin is about to talk about test scores in the 11:00 hour on KDKA. Yippee.
Might I owe anonymous a coke? lol
dee, your idea of a coach is a bit off. These folks aren't motivating teachers. They are certainly not teaching experienced classroom teachers anything, and the idea of backbone is not in the equation. Instead, these folks are intermediaries. They bring what they learn from supervisors to the teachers themselves. They are messengers.
I have to disagree a bit about the general thoughts on coaches. Some have tremendous backbone and I knew at least one who challenged and challenged new initiatives and the curriculum in the first year PPS had the initial coaching model. We each have moved on, he to a new position. Perhaps he had too much backbone?
The coaches in the PPS are for the most part the least experienced teacher's. I have only met two that had over 10 years teaching experience. Some can not handle the classroom and this was their way out. A good number of these coaches were displaced teachers a few years back and they applied for these positions. It is also a fast track to the pela program. The Reading Coaches and Math Coaches at Allderdice over the last two years were a joke. They just passed PPS information on and some other useless crap. The PD,s are a horrible waste of time, they are the same every year. All PPS Coaches are is yes people trying two climb their way two the Ivory Tower, for the most part. The coaches never worked with children all year, they just were junior administrator's at Mr Sherre's disposal. What a waste of money, just a new useless level of middle management. I do not think these people should belong to our pathetic teachers union.
Agreed, although I do not know what you are referring to about "Mr.Sherre". I would agree with most of your commentary although, some coaches were hired by principals either because they were "favorites" or because their abilities in the classroom would not be missed. dee talks about backbone. I know numerous teachers at numerous schools--many who post here---and none have anything good to say about the coaches. If anything, these folks enjoy not being in the classroom and forgot they were teachers to begin with. Backbone? They tend to do the communicating for reading and math supervisors. No way they should be part of the PFT. And you say the PDs are the same every year? What happens when you have a PD or two, or three, or four...every week...and the meeting time is pointless?
I am beginning to think I may be a victim of messages put out by convincing principals, but I prefer to think there are a few exceptions to the description of the coaches posted about here. It helps that some of us are confident enough to speak clearly and mention schools by name. For some of us, our kids have already had to live down our reputations as "out of control parents" on other topics.
Deegazette,
You were not mislead by a convincing principal. Not all coaches live ivory towers or are mini-administrators. Not all fled the classroom. I can think of a half dozen off the top of my head with more than 10 years experience who were excellent as teachers and are excellent as coaches. If I were to review an entire list, I believe it would be longer. It sounds like anon is a bit disgruntled. Not all schools work in that atmosphere.
I agree with many of the posters that this is something to celebrate the accomplishment(briefly!!). It's not a time to knit-pick the order in which people are thanked.
I am in agreement with the last poster to a certain extent. I worked at one of the schools that was lauded at the July press conference. I worked very hard to raise our kids' PSSA scores. Everyone did. I am happy for the school and for the kids. In truthfulness, I could care less who gets the publicity or what order the thanks is given. It doesn't amount to more pay and getting notoriety is not why I entered education.
I enjoy coming to this site from time to time and reading the viewpoints. Some here are congratulatory about the results and some feel insulted. At the end of the day, what does it really matter? The kids achieved.
Re: what it takes to make AYP, The Philadelphia Public School Notebook has a good discussion:
http://www.thenotebook.org/editions/2004/winter/NCLB-PA.htm
It explains that NCLB aims to have ALL public school students proficient in reading and math by the 2013-2014 school year. States determined in advance the target levels for each year up to 2013-2014. (Although not mentioned in this article, most states including PA planned the sharpest gains for the last few years of the NCLB timeframe, from 2010 on. The goal for 2008-2009 was Reading 63% proficient and Math 56% proficient.)
The article also explains the safe harbor: "If a school or subgroup does not meet the performance targets but does reduce the percentage of below-proficient students by 10 percent or more, the sate will consider it to have met AYP for this target area."
PPS is a big and diverse district. I'm not suprised that we've got different experiences and perspectives on a number of issues. Hence, this is why the interactions here are of big value.
Let's all agree, however, that the word 'coach' needs to be modified with either the sports/athletic coach or the academic/curriculum coach.
Funny, I feel strongly that the sports coaches should not be a part of the Teachers Union too.
Most sports coaches are teachers, so your logic escapes me a bit there, Mark. I know that there is a percentage of teachers taking a coaching job just for a paycheck and yet, I know there are many dedicated individuals who coach and truly lose money as they spend a great many hours, purchase equipment and the like. There's good and bad in everything.
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